Hi,
Let me start off by saying this is in no was a debate over breast vs bottle and this is not an attack on anyone. I'm genuinely interested in other people's thoughts this.

There's a lot of women out there who formula feed (and I'm one of them). Do you think this is because of western society/ culture? For example, women give birth (generally) in a medicalised environment, they go home very soon after the birth, sometimes they have no help at home. Then they feel like they should be superwoman and be cooking and cleaning like there's no tomorrow. Here in NZ we only get three months paid maternity leave, so women are likely to go back to work only three months after the baby was born.

Whereas in other cultures, women are encouraged to wear their babies, to have other women around them to help and support them. If you work you take your baby because there's no other option. BFing is socially acceptable and is the norm.

What do you think?

Fiona.

I hope this thread can stay civil but sadly I highly doubt it.

In answer to your questions though, yes I do think western society has over-complicated things.

I ff both my girls and had 2 c/s.....BUT....not a day goes past that I dont lament on not having a natural birth or bf for longer. And had I had more knowledge or education from family members or other women in the community as well as support, as is practised in other cultures, perhaps I may not have had the birthing/bf/ff experience that I had.

In tribes in africa etc they have their babies with them.... so its easy.... in China its seemed as a wealthy thing that you can afford to formula feed your baby as only the poor breastfeed....

I read somewhere in world war two 98% of the population was breastfeed because there was no other choice and in england etc food was rationed and if you lived in the country you could have a goat or cow or something.

See, I think that if we were a society where babies were worn on their mother's chests and had easy access to boobies whenever they wanted, bfing would be a lot easier. I read somewhere that in cultures where women wear their babies and they live in tribes and things, there is simply no cases of colic and/or reflux.

Both of which are common in western societies.

Fiona.

I was born in Malaysia and am Chinese. My mum breastfed me for 4 weeks and then I was put on formula because she had to go back to work. There was no such thing as maternity leave and all mums were expected to go back to work and kids were brought up by their grandparents. My brother who is 5 yrs younger than me was breastfed for 2 months and then formula fed after that. I'm not sure if it is a cultural thing because I know not much has changed back there... women still expected to go back to work... and I get a lot of Asian ladies (mum's friends in NZ but her generation) constantly asking me when I am going back to work! They are shocked when I say, not until my youngest is at school! smile

I have breastfed all my kids. DS1 for 6 months. DS2 for 16 months. DD is nearly a year old and we're still going. I don't have a problem with weaning onto formula but my DS2 and DD love the booby too much! lol.

firstly I just typed half of this and then hit a wrong button and it all went away, so I will try again.

I had my first baby DS1, and he was FF as he would not take the boob, and it was also a very medical labour, I felt rotten!! and got postnal depression.
Bad labour, couldn't bf... not fun at all

BUT.. 7 years later, I have just had DS2 and had the BEST labour, and read alot about Active birth, where you move around during labour and give birth in the most natural position for yourself, not on your back. and it was great, I also breastfeed,
to your question, I am just started to wean my 5 month old onto formula bottles, and I feel there is a pressure to do so, by my peers etc, as he is not sleeping through, so it quite common for people to suggest to me to try him on the bottle etc. and not as much support to continue breastfeeding.

so yes!!

Also to add to the Western thing, I question the way we start our babies on solids, the timing of waiting 6 months and what is consider ok to give at certain ages, when I am sure other cultures are doing almost the opposite.

Great question... hope it stays civil...
Look forward to following this one..

I hope it stays civil too!

Thanks to all those that have replied so far.

Fiona.

I think in Western society we have options/choices and minds of our own which we use in the way we raise our children.
Some women want the Amazon mothering experience, others dont and in Western society we make that choice based on what we want for our children and ourselves.

I also believe that the social brainwashing guilt trip society (especially mothers) places on mothers is a huge deterrent to BFing.

i definately think it is a westernised thing as well.

i could write so many reasons why but i dont have the energy right now tongue

I think in Western society we have options/choices and minds of our own which we use in the way we raise our children.
Some women want the Amazon mothering experience, others dont and in Western society we make that choice based on what we want for our children and ourselves.

I also believe that the social brainwashing guilt trip society (especially mothers) places on mothers is a huge deterrent to BFing.

you're right with the brainwashing! Everywhere you look society portrays a new baby with the typical blue/pink, a rattle......and a bottle.

The chemist down the road for instance has just had a re-furbishment and re-done their advertising. The shop front is entirely glass and has advertisements all over it, including a full floor to ceiling picture of a mum with a newborn with the pharmacist holding a can of formula with the words "we're here for advice" written below.

Whilst I know ff has its place, I do think its too easily available.

I think it's a cop out to blame society for high FF rates. We live in a much more modern environment compare to some other cultures who may not have the choice between BF and FF. They also may not have the luxury of having their baby in the safety of a hospital. We are lucky to have a choice; most of us CAN choose to BF but don't (not that there's anything wrong with that). We can't blame society for so many mothers choosing to FF, when you see many mothers who successfully BF. If they can overcome work commitments, domestic duties and public BF displays then others could if they REALLY wanted to. There is plenty of help available to us, we just have to actively find it.

I was a FFer as well, but I think if I had tried harder and seeked help during the 6 weeks that I did BF I probably would have been more sucessful.

The above isn't including those who can't BF. I just wanted to make that clear so there's no offence smile

cultural expectations and personal situations influence how parents respond to those needs. During the first few months after a baby is born, parents are bombarded with many choices that will affect their baby's growth and development. Should I feed on request or put my baby on a strict schedule? Do I pick my baby up when she cries or let her learn to calm herself? Should my baby sleep with me or in her own room? When babies' biological needs and existing cultural norms are at odds with each other

thats a direct quote from this web page about different cultures and breast feeding...
http://www.breastfeeding.com/reading_room/bottle_culture.html

presure presure presure, you can take any part of raising a baby...... I for one am glad that there is formula as my first born had to be put on pepti junior milk formula which you can only get from a script from a peadtrition.... its pre digested they just have to obsorbe it. this one is bf like a trouper....

i think it is a westernised thing. i certainly do not see it as a bad thing though.

some big companies in the states have childcare on site also big buildings with lots of offices have child care centres in them..... you saw this when the twin towers went down there was a day care on the third floor...

this is to help promote bf as well..... usa have passed laws in 25 states saying it ok to bf in public...... if only we could pass that in NZ

some big companies in the states have childcare on site also big buildings with lots of offices have child care centres in them..... you saw this when the twin towers went down there was a day care on the third floor...

this is to help promote bf as well..... usa have passed laws in 25 states saying it ok to bf in public...... if only we could pass that in NZ

is there a law in NZ that you cant BF in public?? thats crazy if there is.

I dont mind if women tastefully BF, but some women really go to extremes to make a point BF in public is ok...like getting both boobs out when only one is required.....ahhhhh the joys of working in retail haha

and to answer the question....yep ff is very western'ised but i'm not sad about that. i was happy to have the choice smile

I do think it's a westernised thing. In saying that I FF Nikita from about 6 or 8 weeks, can't quite remember. Before having Nikita I had this view of BF that it would come natrally and I would BF until I wen't back to work when she was about 5 months. But nothing could really prepare me for it, it was not easy at all. I don't know if it was because she was 3 weeks early and her mouth was still very small but she would latch on perfectly and then slip to the end of the nipple so I would have to keep putting her back on every couple of minutes and oh my god the pain! I do look back and think maybe I should have perservered and tried for longer, but I was starting to dread feeding her and would just cry all the time. I had no one around me to help or give advice, mum came over from Aussie for about a week but after that I was pretty much on my own. All of that plus the fact that I was flying to Aussie for my sisters wedding when Nikita was almost 4 months and then knowing I had to go back to work just after we got back from Aussie.

Hi again everyone,

Firstly, thanks for keeping it civil!

I'm finding this all really interesting and I'd love more people to respond with their thoughts.

I had plenty of support available to me when I was trying BF my third (and first BF'd) but I had to drive to get that support, with all my children in tow. My midwife had gone on holiday two weeks after my baby was born and left me with another middy who wasn't as pro BF. I regret now not taking that support, although I know at the time, I did the best I could.

I wonder if I lived in a different society, where help was on hand in the form of mothers, sisters and tribe members and if BF'd was something that was out in the open, if I would have been more successful.

I guess I would have been, because formula wouldn't be an option!

Fiona.

there is no law in NZ about not breast feeding in public..... but there have been a few cases lately...... one lady was in the childrens section on the public library bf her wee baby while reading..... (something i can't do as i need two hands because of the cannons on my chest) an old man told her to go to the toilet to feed....

another lately was on tv about a women bf in a cafe in a market was asked to go out the back and bf.... granted the room was a nice room but she didn't want to go out the back......

Last night I was at an out door concert for the Wonkey donkey book... and there were babies being bf every where it was great to see as it was a family night.... so far as far as i know it was all positive....

because my boobs are like h's now i have to do the mission impossible move to try and get it in without the whole boob being on display.... i find if i wear a singlet and a top over it i can pull the singlet down and the top up...... and the boobie stays in with help support of the singlet....

I wonder if I lived in a different society, where help was on hand in the form of mothers, sisters and tribe members and if BF'd was something that was out in the open, if I would have been more successful.

see, i dont understand this cos to me, bf is completely out in the open????? it is not shunned or frowned upon. and if it is by a minority...well it is a minority, not the majority. i think we as women need to own the choices we make sometimes.

i always think what a lucky country i live in. lucky because of the choices i have here. the freedom i have here, the freedom to choose, the options available if things dont go to plan. imo it is a blessing, not a curse. there are reasons why refusgees want to come to australia. the ability to choose would be on that list.

Hi,
Let me start off by saying this is in no was a debate over breast vs bottle and this is not an attack on anyone. I'm genuinely interested in other people's thoughts this.

There's a lot of women out there who formula feed (and I'm one of them). Do you think this is because of western society/ culture? For example, women give birth (generally) in a medicalised environment, they go home very soon after the birth, sometimes they have no help at home. Then they feel like they should be superwoman and be cooking and cleaning like there's no tomorrow. Here in NZ we only get three months paid maternity leave, so women are likely to go back to work only three months after the baby was born.

Whereas in other cultures, women are encouraged to wear their babies, to have other women around them to help and support them. If you work you take your baby because there's no other option. BFing is socially acceptable and is the norm.

What do you think?

Fiona.

Society today is really crap in terms of help and support for partents. There are so many times where i wish i had sisters and other relatives around me (even friends!) who have babies the same age as my son so we can travel this journey together! Like just having someone there to watch the baby while i go to the loo in peace and not having to rush the job smile

I also think that today, mothers 'compete' with eachother - 'my baby is crawling/eating/walking before yours' which is terrible and should not happen. In other cultures when babies are raised in a community and breastfeeding is just another thing in everyday life and its no big deal, mothers are alot more relaxed and patient because they have help all the time. Also, in thrid world counties today, formula doesnt exsist or they cant afford it anyway so their choices are either to breastfeed, find someone else to feed your baby, or your baby dies - very simple. I bet in todays society, if formula was really hard to get a hold of, a lot more women would just carry on because there is no other choice. Imagine living through the Great Depression now? All of a sudden just buying a loaf of bread is hard. Man thats one thing i really dont want to think about!
Everyone has different views on the 'right' thing to do by their kids an you know what? Thats perfectly great! Their your kids after all and i think that the decisions we make later on when we have teenagers are gonna be much more complex than the small, really unimportant decision of BF vs FF because all kids reagardless of what they drink grow up healthy and happy. I personally BF and cows milk feed my 8 month old because when i try formula he screams his head off. He is growing well and really happy and healthy so im happy with that. I get some major sh*t over it but at th end of the day im happy with my decision so dont get affected by these judgemental people who i think are scared that they HAVENT made the right choice (whatever their choice) for their kids. Im happy so i figure thats all the matters right?

I think it depends on the individual family and what the women have all done in that family. Yes some will choose to be different to their families... but my mother and all her sisters bf'd and really encouraged it for me - so therefore I was completely determined that I would do it too. If I did not have this support I would have given up in the first 3 weeks because it was SO HARD! However.. due to determination and support I fed dd for 13 months.


Dh's family on the otherhand all formula fed. My mil would tell me it's 'disgusting' to bf and would make everyone leave the room if I started to feed, or tell me to go into another room. She did not attempt to bf at all - straight onto formula. (That's fine with me as that's her choice but I don't like her attitude toward others that choose differently to her!)

My mil has 2 daughters - both of them tried for about 3 days and gave up. I can see why.... all through the time I struggled to breastfeed (about 6 weeks all up) mil was on the phone to dh pushing and pushing that she should be formula fed. She would blame all dd's sleeping problems on bfing and then the pressure from dh was unbelievable as he thought his mother was right. I'm just lucky I had my mother nearby to whinge about it and gain her support.


So yeah, I think it's a family culture thing. You will naturally rely on the people around you for support - and if you don't get the support you need you're more likely to give up.

I was born and raised in South Africa, and I think most people would be surprised to know how prolific formula feeding is in Third World countries. South Africa is a complex case, because there is such a huge gap between the priviledged and the poor. But right across the spectrum, women make up a huge part of the country's work force - you will probably find this to be the case in most Third World countries. These countries are poor, their governments don't have the resources to provide incentives to mothers to stay at home to nurture their young. You don't work, you don't get paid, simple as that. Besides that, the lower you go on the socio-economic scale, the more the likelihood that you'll work far from home and you'll probably spend hours on public transport a day, leaving home when it's still dark and getting home after dark.

So unless we're talking societies so primitive that entire villages sit outside a hut from morning 'til night, I think the whole "formula feeding is a Westernised trend" is a myth. In fact, you'll find countries with the highest percentages of breast feeding are the ones where the citizens enjoy the highest standards of living worldwide, for example the Scandinavian countries.

I think education and encouragement to breastfeed is available freely (certainly in NZ!) for those who want to breastfeed. We are so fortunate to live in a country where we have choices. Women who are passionate about breastfeeding and find they are struggling, have a duty to themselves to pursue every possible avenue to get the help and support they need. Personally I believe women are more disappointed with their own attempts at breastfeeding, than the attempts of society or their Government. I can't speak for Australia, but in NZ the support for mothers struggling to breastfeed is staggering. But it usually requires the mother to be pro-active enough to do something as labour intensive as picking up a phone. If no one knows you're struggling, you can't be helped. So at least in THIS Westernised country, I can honestly say that formula feeding is by no means a feeding option promoted by the Government or Society in general.

I didnt BF DS1 as I had no family support, none of my family BF. I asked them why once I had DS2 as I was BF him. One aunty came out and said bluntly that is was a disgusting thing. I couldnt believe my ears.

DH is very supportive and even woke up at feeding times to keep my company.
I had alot of suuport from the hospital after having DS2, We are very lucky to have the help there if we want. I only BF DS2 for 2 months as he had a hard time latching on. I hated myself for it as DH gave me so much grief for giving up. My BB's are big and it was difficult trying to feed DS2 and hold my BB's up. EEK! But I have recently found the booby booster which will be ordered and make BF so much easier.

This is quite an interesting topic and has got me thinking............

I dont really think it is a "western trend" to FF, but it is made too easy to do/choose. Instead of continuing to "support" BF efforts and fixing any problems, formula is suggested all too often.

BUT, IMO, the reason it is made so easy to do/choose, is that there isnt a whole lot of BF support, especially face-to-face support.
It is all well and good to have BF experts on the end of the phone, but from my own experience, I needed an "expert" sitting on my hospital bed physically showing me what my nipple should be doing in order to get correct attachment and therefore successful BF. This was with #2.

I was in tears for 9 weeks with #1 trying to get correct attachment and was mixed feeding all the while so that I could rest my horrendously cracked nipples. DS ended up fully FF at 9 weeks and I am happy with my decision (not that it was a decision, it was an end-of-my-tether, puling-my-hair-out moment), but one which in hindsight may have been avoided with the correct support.
If the woman who had taken 5 minutes to show me the correct attachment had of been there in hospital with me, when I had #1, I would have BF him for as long as I could.
As it was, with #2, my supply diminished to nothing at about 4 months so that DD ended up FF anyway.

But, I think that the community health nurses, midwives etc need extra training and resources so that all women who give birth are able to physically see a BF expert to get attachment etc correct in the early days. I feel (and again IMO) that this would definitely contribute towards higher continuation of BF at 2, 4, 6 and 12 months.

I realise that there are a whole host of reasons that people cannot/do not BF, and supply and incorrect attachment are just two, but this is just my opinion on it.

What I mean by BF'd not being out in the open is that there still seems to be a (loud) minority of people who DON'T accept BF'd in public. Therefore, you don't tend to see people BF'd out and about, unless they're covered up with a wrap/sheet style thingy.

Subzero is quite correct, there have been a few cases here in NZ where women have been made to feel uncomfortable and have been told to take it to the toilet.

Fiona.

My view is, breast or bottle feed, it does not matter, you do what suits you and works for your baby. Every one will have opinions on what you should do. Dont listen to anyone, Its like everything else people try to tell you advice on. Pick what suits and do it. Stuff everyone else. Western society thing? Dont know and dont care.

I think there is help out there to help breastfeeders, but YOU need to ask. I had access to a lacatation consultant while in hospital (was in for 7 days, which is how long I think ALL mums should be there for to get bf established. In my mum's generation, 7-10 days was a normal hospital stay. Too many seem to be in a rush to get home now, which may suit some, but as your milk is not in till day 4, this seems silly to me).

Also, I had a home visit by my local health nurse on my second day at being at home. She was not a lacatation consultant, but gave me the numbers of 3 locals who were. At 2 weeks, had excruciating pain, bleeding, I was in tears. Made an appointment to see one of these lc's, (all free of charge), and continued breastfeeding till bub was 13 months, when she basically weaned herself.

I didn't have really any help on the breastffeding side of things at home with family of friends. It was something, as a mum, I worked on myself. There is help out there if you really want it.

I think there is help out there to help breastfeeders, but YOU need to ask. I had access to a lacatation consultant while in hospital (was in for 7 days, which is how long I think ALL mums should be there for to get bf established. In my mum's generation, 7-10 days was a normal hospital stay. Too many seem to be in a rush to get home now, which may suit some, but as your milk is not in till day 4, this seems silly to me).

Also, I had a home visit by my local health nurse on my second day at being at home. She was not a lacatation consultant, but gave me the numbers of 3 locals who were. At 2 weeks, had excruciating pain, bleeding, I was in tears. Made an appointment to see one of these lc's, (all free of charge), and continued breastfeeding till bub was 13 months, when she basically weaned herself.

I didn't have really any help on the breastffeding side of things at home with family of friends. It was something, as a mum, I worked on myself. There is help out there if you really want it.

I would have loved to spend 10 days in the hospital with my baby.... but this is another debate about what has happened with birthing units and midwifes in NZ..... back in the days you had a doctor at births,,,,,, small hospitals could do emergency c sections due to the fact they had the right people working on the job....

all my babies have had to be born at the base hospital 200km away and in full blown labour its an ambalance ride or you go in the chopper.....

then on day two after a c section the midwifes in the hospital put pressure on you to go home...

Also Eve75.....

I spent 5 days in hossie with dd and I wished I had've gone home on day 2. Next time I WONT be staying in hossie any longer than absolutely necessary!

My reason for this is that I felt almost bullied by the midwives. Different info from each one, different opinions (and VERY opinionated I might add) and pressure like no other for what they thought I should be doing with my baby that WOULDNT sleep. And the same kind of pressure over BFing which I was having trouble with. Not help. PRESSURE. I still bf my baby regardless of them making me feel like I wanted to just throw it all in.

Midwives are fine if everything is going how they want to see it - but if there is a problem that the mother can't fix there on the spot they are ogres!!!!!

Guess that just dependes on the hospital/staff that you have. I was left pretty much alone, with a nurse just popping her head in when her shift began and ended, asking if I needed any help. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't, and they did as requested.

My first bub, they supplied breast pump, as she just wouldn't attach properly, then suggested a nipple shield.... which worked a treat. My second bub was much easier, just a bit too agressive/eager.... hence my initial pain. The lactation consultants assisted once I left hospital.