I have started this thread so if people want to learn about or discuss the downside to reward charts, over praising, punishing bad behaviour etc.

Basically, I feel that we are there to guide kids. I feel that by rewarding a normal behaviour whether it be via a star chart, an outing or an overdose of "good jumping" in that sickly sweet voice, it is actually detrimental to the whole learning process and can actually create bad behaviours and prevent them from getting authentic joy from achieving.

The reason behind this is because by rewarding normal learning processes in such a dramatic way, it essentially makes everything else that they do inadequate. Basically a kid is doing things to get the satisfaction of either pleasing you, getting a star/lolly/outing but not because they get joy in achieving something for themselves. eg. a kid gets enormous pleasure out of doing "grown up" things. (toilet etc) its not as simple as have a sticker because you sat on the toilet. Why would they then sit on the loo if there is no reward. The reward should be because they themselves have achieved something.

Another aspect is it is an essentially selfish concept. A kid is learning to do something simply because they get something in return. Whereas what we are really after is them to have the concept of thinking about others.
eg. a kid snatches a toy, their punishment is they are sent to time out and then made to say sorry. They are then rewarded with praise because they said sorry - even though they had to be bribed (you can come out of timeout) to do so. This is not them saying sorry because they are genuinely sorry, it is them saying sorry because they gain from it.

Anyway... I hope that it makes sense.

I will also add, my supporting this argument does not mean that I am trying to offend or attack anybody here. What you do in your own home is your business. I am just trying to demonstrate there is more to teaching behavior and what seems a lovely way to teach kids behavior, could actually be causing more damage then good in the long run.

I will probably be back on later after kiddies and dinner is sorted!

They are then rewarded with praise because they said sorry - even though they had to be bribed (you can come out of timeout) to do so. This is not them saying sorry because they are genuinely sorry, it is them saying sorry because they gain from it.

Huh? So do you tell your kids to say sorry or not?

I haven't been in that situation, but we don't tell her she has to say sorry.
She is 3 and says it on her own 99% of the time just from learning through interaction.

sorry...hit post....

was going to say, sometimes we say something like "that would have hurt dd2, or she doesn't like it when you do that" and that is when she says sorry and tries to fix the problem.

When she is older we might say something like, "if your sorry, maybe you should tell that person" rather then "go and tell that person your sorry or you will stay here"

make sense?

I don't make mine say sorry either.

I think kids learn a lot from watching their parents. My DD is 3 and she says thank you a lot because I do, when we get off the bus I say thank you to the bus driver and she does the same (often before me) without prompting. Same with sorry, if she hurts someone she usually says sorry without prompting because if I accidentally hurt her or someone else I say sorry. I hope that makes sense.

I use time out but she goes in and then comes out after a set time and we don't talk about why she was in there. It's usually something like "DD you don't hit your brother, go sit and think for 3 minutes", she sits in time out, I start the timer and when it goes off she comes out, end of story. I don't force her to say sorry but she usually does. I don't praise her if she does.

So I can see where you are coming from.

i guess it really depends on the kid. My youngest often says sorry automatically like that and my eldest will do if she does something accidentally but when it's deliberate it's a whole different ball game and that's when the punishment happens. And I do make them say sorry after - whether I believe they feel it or not.

i agree with alot of what you say. i think people over do the positive stuff. like i dont think you should prase kids for doing something that they should do anyway.
my son is only 7months though so we will see lol

i do agree with a lot of what you say and i do find myself cringing after an over enthusiastic bout of praise for learning a new skill etc but i also find it really hard not to show how pleased i am with good behaviour/skills learnt etc because as her mum it makes me proud and i want to show her and my natural reaction is a big smile and a clap or a cuddle etc and yes...sometimes the whiny voice LOL unsure

i am torn about the reward chart/system because i understand where you are coming from and i agree that used wrongly or over used it could definately create problems but i also feel like kids use a currency of sorts. if they behave in a positive way, they will have positive outcomes and experiences. if they behave negatively, the outcome or experience that follows will most likely be negative. so i feel like if my DD does something that i want her to repeat, a good behaviour, i'd like to show her that it is something that is rewarded, whether it be a pat on the back, a sticker or later on in life, through job opportunities etc. hard work is rewarded in this world and im not saying they should be rewarded for EVERYTHING positive they do but if it makes them repeat good behaviour or stop/change negative behaviour, i see it as a good thing. but i have read articles about the negative effects of rewarding behaviour and they've made some really good points but it sounded to me like you couldnt even be enthusiastic without it becoming detrimental to the child (and of course i cant remember what the article was called or who posted it etc to use as an example)

As for saying sorry, i DO make DD say it if she hurts someone etc but not straight away. i will deal with whatever the situation is and then tell her that when you hurt someone, for example, it can help to make the person feel better if you say sorry and that i think little Billy or whoever would like you to apologise. same with if she is rude to me. I tell her that she was rude and that when you are rude you should apologise so that the person feels better.
To me, its the repetition that creates habit and i want her to be in the habit of apologising if she hurts someone (and im talking by accident too!)
and she does apologise. For example the other day she ran into one of our dogs on her scooter and instinctively she said "Sorry Reg are you okay?" and she meant it. But the only reason she knew to say it is because when situations like that arose, i taught her to say it, through interactions, watching me, but also through me telling her she should say that.

does any of that make sense? my brain is fried so apologies for the ramble!

i heard someone say "goood hugging" yesterday.....they were hugging a bear.
I swear everytime I go out all I hear is this chorus of good this and good that.... nothing constructive, just how brilliant they are at simple everyday things.

i heard someone say "goood hugging" yesterday.....they were hugging a bear.
I swear everytime I go out all I hear is this chorus of good this and good that.... nothing constructive, just how brilliant they are at simple everyday things.

but then there are those that argue you should simply ignore bad behaviour... so if you ignore bad behaviour and ignore good behaviour then the kids just gets ignored!

as a child care worker im very conscious of praising for a behaviour not just for being "good"

for example instead of "good hugging" we were taught and i now find myself saying "i like the way you are hugging that bear so gently" if i feel its necessary to say anything at all.

i am always trying to step back and just let her play/development happen and me be a bystander who is there if she needs me or has a question but there are times where i see her master something for the first time or handle a confrontation with another child in a really mature/positive way and i will go up to her afterwards and tell her that i am proud of her for using her words or for sharing etc.

i praise my kids all the time, for the simplest of things like jumping all the way down the hallway. i praise him for manners, running, singing, everything. i will continue to do so as it is not false praise. ds IS a good jumper smile. i dont think you can over praise a child. you can under praise, but not over.

i no longer make ds say he is sorry after time out, i just let it go. but if he whacks his sister or accidently knocks her over, whilst in most cases he will say i'm sorry, i will prompt him if he doesnt. same as coughing. most times he will cover his mouth, but sometime he forgets.

What mumto2T's said. smile

I also think it is important for me to not overthink parenting, I go with my gut a lot and have confidence in my decisions.

i praise my kids all the time, for the simplest of things like jumping all the way down the hallway. i praise him for manners, running, singing, everything. i will continue to do so as it is not false praise. ds IS a good jumper smile. i dont think you can over praise a child. you can under praise, but not over.

i no longer make ds say he is sorry after time out, i just let it go. but if he whacks his sister or accidently knocks her over, whilst in most cases he will say i'm sorry, i will prompt him if he doesnt. same as coughing. most times he will cover his mouth, but sometime he forgets.

I am the same, I praise my kids all the time and will continue to do so. My Son loves getting praise for using the toilet and it encourages him to use it more.

"Normal" behaviour for my DS is to be a hypo lil poop head that gets in to EVERYTHING and i wont reward that...thats for sure but i will reward him if he sits down, eats all his food for once or puts his shoes on so he knows its the right thing to do...BUT hes so independant (but in a bad way) i found him trying to cut an orange and trying to get a shirt off the line <img src='http://www.huggies.com.au/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='<_<' />

And He says sorry as soon as he realises that im angry....like he called me a bitch and i just looked at him and as soon as he seen my face he knew i wasnt happy and started saying "im sorry" over and over again...but i still sent him to his room and he came out 5mins later and said he was sorry n gave me a kiss...

What mumto2T's said. smile

I also think it is important for me to not overthink parenting, I go with my gut a lot and have confidence in my decisions.

this is what i was just thinking about as i read my post. it sounds as though i analyse everything i say before i say it to my DD (and i can assure you thats not the case tongue) but i think as long as you are fair, polite, patient (as much as a parent can be LOL) and loving, with only the best of intentions for your kids at heart, then you will raise a fairly happy child, charts or no, "over-use" of praise or no.

that makes sense m2a! its the end of the day, I understand!!

I am not going to have a lot of time to respond at the moment...but very quickly....

Its not about no praising at all. Obviously as parents we want to smother them with kisses and tell them they are absolutely fantastic and brilliant at every single thing they do! Its about being aware yourself of how often and when you use praise. Praise is a currency for kids - and you don't want it to be. As a student you want them to enjoy learning because if they enjoy learning it will carry over into adult hood. if they do assignments because they are after the praise (which isn't really a conscious thing, more of a let down feeling if they don't get a good mark or comment) then they are unlikely to extend this to all areas of their life.

with the kids currency, they can - but it wouldn't really be an issue until much older. At 2.5 Ashlee is only learning how to behave. its a bit like a kid learning to walk.... the walking is the end result - but you don't give a stamp because they have achieved it, the walking is satisfaction enough. Just like the learning process to get there didn't mean they were inadequate. by rewarding something such as listening - it says you have listened therefore you get a reward, but the rest of the time you are in the wrong.

The whole thing is pretty complex...there is a great book called "Children are People Too" that might be of interest for this sort of thing.

With kids, they are just mini adults. They don't really need to be treated like they are miracles because they have eaten some food, or said sorry at the right time. They learn, make mistakes and shouldn't be judged either positively or negatively about their behaviour. its all learning, its all natural and it should all be relaxed. We spend so much time trying to force our kids to learn, just let them be and it will happen. The trick is to control our own frustration when their pace of life is different to our own, because that is essentially what it comes down to.
xxx

i heard someone say "goood hugging" yesterday.....they were hugging a bear.
I swear everytime I go out all I hear is this chorus of good this and good that.... nothing constructive, just how brilliant they are at simple everyday things.

see, if the child was 18 i would find that behaviour odd. but if they were as young as my ds (2.8 years) i wouldnt find anything sickly about that at all.

I haven't read the replies but I have studied extrinsic and intrinsic motivation/rewards as part of my teaching degree and I think intrinsic motivation is so much better than outside or extrinsic motivation/rewards.

I do not use reward charts with my children but I know for other people it works well. I think a balance between the two is what is key so that children learn the value of self motivation as well as the feeling of outside rewards.

I think praising a child is different to rewards BUT praise CAN become over used, which then makes it under valued by the receiver. You have to be conscious of what you say, and when you choose to make comment on behaviour (is it worth praising?). I try to catch my kids being good daily but not every single time or it makes my praise a little empty IMO. I try not to say 'good boy' or 'good girl' because I think it labels the child and their gender rather than specifying the behaviour. My children are good at self praise (lol, just ask them!) which I think is a good thing.

but then there are those that argue you should simply ignore bad behaviour... so if you ignore bad behaviour and ignore good behaviour then the kids just gets ignored!

i have heard that....i think they praise good behaviour though....

I don't think bad behaviour should be ignored. I think it should be addressed for what it is. Is it the kid learning, if so guide them towards the appropriate behaviour. are they acting out because of something, if slo try and address whatever is troubling them. I don't believe kids are naughty just because. there is always a reason.

I think that kids respond to a variety of different approaches. Kids tend to model their parents behaviour if they see their parent being rewarded for that behaviour - which is probably pretty rare in regards to housework, etc! Children are more likely to learn new behaviours, or stop undesired behaviours, if they are rewarded for good behaviour, and punished for bad behaviour - consistently, by someone that they see as having power in their life, which is usually their parents. Another thing I have learned is that if a child is rewarded for doing something they don't like doing consistently, they can develop an intrinsic like of that action - so just because they don't like doing it in the first place, does not mean they will never like doing it! These are things I learned recently in my psychology course, and I find that, in general, I agree with them! We have what I call a button chart - my children get a button for doing a behaviour I want them to do, and lose a button for doing what I don't want them to do, which means they are consistently rewarded for good behaviour, and consistently punished for bad behaviour. At the end of the day, if they have enough buttons, they get to watch a tv show before bed. I have found that my children have an increased enjoyment of doing jobs around the house - they go around the house looking for jobs to do for me! - and are, in general, nicer to each other. This chart has worked brilliantly for my family!
Kerrie

OC you make a lot of sense and i agree with the end result (walking) being satisfaction enough. i totally get everything you are saying. and i do pull myself up at times when i am about to "interfere" and remind myself to just let her go and see how it plays out (watching her trying to do something she hasnt done before etc) but there are times where it is definately difficult not to step in and do a happy dance LOL

What mumto2T's said. smile

I also think it is important for me to not overthink parenting, I go with my gut a lot and have confidence in my decisions.

this is what i do as well. i post here because my parenting techniques are so different, i want to show people there are other options. i have found many people that assume thinking at all about parenting is overthinking....doing what is done is the most dangerous....

"Normal" behaviour for my DS is to be a hypo lil poop head that gets in to EVERYTHING and i wont reward that...thats for sure but i will reward him if he sits down, eats all his food for once or puts his shoes on so he knows its the right thing to do...BUT hes so independant (but in a bad way) i found him trying to cut an orange and trying to get a shirt off the line <img src='http://www.huggies.com.au/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/dry.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='<_<' />

i guess thats where we are different....i can't see a problem with cutting an orange for himself or getting a shirt off the line. its all about perspective.

OC you make a lot of sense and i agree with the end result (walking) being satisfaction enough. i totally get everything you are saying. and i do pull myself up at times when i am about to "interfere" and remind myself to just let her go and see how it plays out (watching her trying to do something she hasnt done before etc) but there are times where it is definately difficult not to step in and do a happy dance LOL

lol do a happy dance - just don't do them so often in front of her that she feels like she performing!!

i guess thats where we are different....i can't see a problem with cutting an orange for himself or getting a shirt off the line. its all about perspective.

LOL... hes not even three and he had a knife and to reach the clothes line he was standing on his huggies art desk :/

i found him making his own "vegimite biscuits" (cornthins) today and let him go cos he coudlnt hurt himself doing that....unlike cutting himself or falling off a wobbley table LOL

I think parenting is about the parent and the child. Children are like us, human beings. Human beings that all have different feelings, emotions, thoughts etc.

In life we can all learn so differently, some of us learn by doing, some learn by reading, some learn by watching, some learn by praise and need to be pushed etc and our children are the same. They all respond and learn differently.

My son is praised for things that i feel is an achievement in his life. So doing something insignificant to your family, may be highly significant in ours.

We use a reward chart. We use it beacuse we think by him recognising good behaviours without being prompted is a really positive thing. We all work towards things in life, we strive to do our best and it feels amazing to achieve success. I understand that you are saying achieving the desired result is the reward, but with our son it doesn't work that way. HE can't SEE the positive side of it without the praise.

Since we introduced this reward chart his behaviour has changed a lot. I hear and see him doing things that melt my heart, the way he speaks to his sister or shares soemthing with her. I look away as if i never noticed but when he does it right in front of me, from time to time he will get a sticker on his chart to remind him that he is using the right behaviour and its a great thing.

I do respect your views though, and love hearing about other people's parenting methods smile

Not surprisingly OC I agree with your style of parenting and I think its refreshing to read about other non-mainstream practices.

You'd been MIA for a while and I'm so glad to see you back.

Until I joined huggies I was very mainstream but you and Christina (C-Hippi) have really opened my eyes to so many new concepts and I love it.

Thanks for sharing your views on this topic smile

Rach

With kids, they are just mini adults. They don't really need to be treated like they are miracles because they have eaten some food, or said sorry at the right time. They learn, make mistakes and shouldn't be judged either positively or negatively about their behaviour. its all learning, its all natural and it should all be relaxed. We spend so much time trying to force our kids to learn, just let them be and it will happen. The trick is to control our own frustration when their pace of life is different to our own, because that is essentially what it comes down to.
xxx

I respect other parents choices but I disagree with the notion that kids are mini-adults. Children at the most biologically basic level have brains that are still developing. There is a raft of research on child development (physical, psychological, educational etc) that explains the stages children go through. Children can be very self-focused (as can some adults) and reminders about how to respond to others can actually aid the development of empathy. This is one of the foundations of the Restorative Practice Approach.

Children don't reason the way that adults do. Human kind has evolved to seek reinforcement for our actions- children look into the faces of their parents to see if they are on the right tack, even before they are told that they are 'good huggers'. wink

I agree that modeling is a VERY effective way to teach young children but this doesn't mean that they don't also respond well to praise.

I respect other parents choices but I disagree with the notion that kids are mini-adults. Children at the most biologically basic level have brains that are still developing. There is a raft of research on child development (physical, psychological, educational etc) that explains the stages children go through. Children can be very self-focused (as can some adults) and reminders about how to respond to others can actually aid the development of empathy. This is one of the foundations of the Restorative Practice Approach.

Children don't reason the way that adults do. Human kind has evolved to seek reinforcement for our actions- children look into the faces of their parents to see if they are on the right tack, even before they are told that they are 'good huggers'. wink

I agree that modeling is a VERY effective way to teach young children but this doesn't mean that they don't also respond well to praise.

I think mini adults was the wrong term. I should have used the word people.

I agree with what you have said. I think children respond extremely well to praise. I think it reinforces the behaviour that the adult wants them to display and it makes them feel good because they are on the right track. So this is where the problem lies with too much praise. It is addictive. It takes away the original purpose of a child learning and developing at any stage, because the praise becomes the goal. It also works against kids being confident in themselves and promotes adult control rather then adult guidance. It isn't about no praise ever....it is about being conscious of the way you phrase it.

rather then "good jumping" what about "wow! I bet you felt great when you jumped that high!"

instead of "what a fantastic girl you ate a whole spoon of potato!" what about "did you enjoy that? It looked delicious."

Just because they are kids, they don't need to be spoken down to and patronised which is exactly what that praise does. It suggests that the kid needs an adult to tell them when they are allowed to feel pleased with themselves. A kid knows when they feel good or have achieved something. If they are relying on an adult to then thump them on the back and praise them because they jumped so high and the adult doesn't, its a let down. Whereas the adult should be supporting the kid to feel good about themselves.